George Saunders On: Getting Un-Stuck, Calming the Inner Critic, and Building Empathy Without Becoming a Chump - Ten Percent Happier Recap

Podcast: Ten Percent Happier

Published: 2026-01-30

Duration: 1 hr 6 min

Guests: George Saunders

Summary

George Saunders discusses his new novel 'Vigil', exploring themes of empathy, mortality, and the afterlife. He also delves into the concept of 'warm metacognition' and how fiction can serve as a 'reconsideration machine'.

What Happened

George Saunders delves into his fascination with ghosts and the afterlife, explaining that his interest extends beyond mere mortality dread. His new novel, 'Vigil', features a ghostly character who comforts the dying and encounters a former oil executive linked to climate change denial, which raises questions about extending empathy to those who cause harm.

The episode explores the lavish empathy central to 'Vigil', discussing whether such empathy should be extended to individuals responsible for significant societal damage. Saunders argues that empathy does not equate to passivity, but rather equips individuals with a deeper understanding of their adversaries, enabling more effective action.

Saunders introduces the concept of 'warm metacognition', which involves stepping back from one's thought processes to examine personal biases and assumptions. This practice is likened to wearing 'goggles' that color our perception, and recognizing them can lead to greater self-awareness and less judgmental thinking.

Fiction, according to Saunders, acts as a 'reconsideration machine' that prompts readers to question their perceptions and biases. He cites the example of Tolstoy's 'Master and Man', which allows readers to reassess their judgments about characters as the story unfolds.

Saunders discusses his relationship with death anxiety, a fear that has intensified with age. Meditation has been a helpful tool for him in managing this anxiety, emphasizing the reality of suffering and the imminence of death in Buddhist teachings.

The episode highlights the difference between kindness and niceness, where kindness is rooted in genuine empathy and understanding, while niceness can often be superficial. Saunders underscores that fiction should not necessarily solve problems but correctly formulate them, as Chekhov suggested.

Saunders reflects on his creative process, emphasizing the importance of curiosity over self-accusation when dealing with creative 'stuckness'. He encourages stretching oneself creatively as one ages, to continue growing and evolving as an artist.

Finally, Saunders talks about his Substack, 'Story Club', which originated from his book 'A Swim in a Pond in the Rain'. This platform allows him to dissect classic short stories with a thoughtful community, enhancing his understanding of storytelling and empathy.

Key Insights